Expand your minds and contract your ignorance
  • Hi all,

    For a while now I've had real problems digesting scientific theory's of the big bang. Especially in relation to a beginning and end of the earth . These doubts are not born out of a 'denial' that the world could end,or any religious ignorance, more the big bang theory to me is a contradiction of the physical laws of life as I understand them .,

    For me ,The Big Bang theory remains ones of science's biggest grey area's (Though there are many yet undiscovered areas) .The current "popular" view is that the universe as we know it began and thus one day it will end .

    Though personally I find beginnings and ends just don't add up to anything other than science trying to tie a knot in theory's just so as to try and make these theory's seem complete .

    Aristotle wrote that scientific knowledge was a body of reliable knowledge that can be logically and rationally explained"

    There are many unproven theory's that "float" around the proven Facts .The Big Bang with a beginning and end remains a theory .

    Science shows that for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction .A large part of the "evidence" that the Big Bang theory relies upon is the measurement that the universe is expanding .

    Surely science then has also taken into consideration that this energy of expansion should also have a opposite energy of contraction .

    Even though I understand thus believe many modern scientific explanations my intuition tells me that the Big bang theory is not only improbable but physically impossible .


    What I do believe is this :-

    The human Brain is not yet evolved enough in order to comprehend the "True Nature" of this existence . ( Though it seems that the male scientific ego always likes to think it does have the capacity ) .

    As an example : Can anyone give 1 example in life of a beginning and an end .

    I can think of only 1 - A individuals consciousness .Though it could be argued that if that consciousness was human & had passed on there knowledge in some way - to offspring, books , music etc then part of that consciousness lives on in another form .

    Anyway my point is that maybe using another form of interpretation as well as scientific knowledge to "help" the brain feel it's way, a true image of our place in this life can be comprehended.

    Using Rhythms a more complete picture can be formed on what is reality and what is fantasy thus the edges of this universe ( By edges I am referring to a conscious human edge rather than limitless space which has no boundaries other than the laws which serve for it to function as a universe ) become sharper and more refined .

    Before science was realised, humans as other mammals do today must of used there instincts for guidance .This instinct is a combination of the brains logic and body's nervous system and can give insight that goes deep into our inherited make up.

    I believe that is why DANCING to music has had such growth throughout many parts of human culture.

    It provides the missing " Foundation" needed for a person to realise they are a system of physical Biological Rhythms as the universe is a system of physical rhythms .

    Not so much a Big Bang.More a series of infinite bangs relative to one another .

    The Rhythm of Life = It makes sense on all levels

    Try it out for yourself !

    Just Dance and move like this world always has and will .
  • and they accuse me of making spam - LOL
  • orangeupurple said:
    and they accuse me of making spam


    Well in this particular case they are correct, as you have added no constructive addition or worthy argument to the discussion,you have just spammed this thread :bigsmile: .

    I don't see how scientific debate can be seen as spam? and this is the "off topic forum" "write about anything" .Though since my last post was deleted, maybe this is the 'write just what the moderators want forum .'

    If this post is deleted I will be writing to jamendo for a explanation ! and suggesting that maybe there moderators are being a little biased towards what they feel is a relevant subject .
  • LOL - don't worry . . . I am persona-non-grata, also, here on Jamendo. . . and removing my own spams before they remove me . . . then I will be finding new playgrounds . . . to play in

    oooohhhhh but here I am again spamming your thread . . .

    sorry
    :bigsmile:
  • I ain't deleted anything except that which needed deleting, but I am going to add to the current discussion...

    You had asked for one example of a beginning and an end. I'm looking at this in its most simplistic form, and there may be holes in my thought processes, but I blame that on the `60's.

    A single plant. Not a group, where they could propegate, but one single plant. Most start from a seed. If the seed sits on/in the soil and it gets enough water/nutrients it will grow. If the ground is barren, and has no nutrients, and no other plants to help propegate another, then in turn that one plant would wither and die. If left alone to decompose it may deteriorate into the ground, where it "might" feed a different seed - but! we are talking of the one plant. Once it has rotted, then that would be its end.

    There are a lot of variables that could be thrown in to juxtapose this plant into something else, as I never gave a genus.

    Am I on the right track I.B.1?
  • You are not the only one that thinks the "Big Bang" is somewhat bogus.
    IB1 said:
    The human Brain is not yet evolved enough in order to comprehend the "True Nature" of this existence

    Wasn't there once a person that said something like... "There are more calculations in space and time... than there is in our imaginations"
    Isaac Asimov... maybe?

    LOL the problem with that idea is... If I imagine a big bang... does it exist? o_O

    Why is it that many people have no problem with infinite bigness but ignore infinite smallness? Perhaps there is a big bang somewhere in/in-between the atoms of my body... lol or maybe it's just gas :confused:

    Lens-of-focus is a funny thing when we really only know this planet and this reality. And most of us, like me, don't know it that well.
    That's why I have been spending most of my free time playing Oblivion. I make some pretty great potions and I fight mud crabs! It's my job!

    I liked what you said about Rhythms... natural rhythms... The Rhythm of Life. :bigsmile: I like to think on that stuff when listening to ambient.

    [edit] I also like to fireball mud crabs from 1000 yards away while listining to ambient... go figure. o_O
  • SirQuestinghood said:
    hat's why I have been spending most of my free time playing Oblivion. I make some pretty great potions and I fight mud crabs! It's my job!


    SirQ - sounds like you are good at your job :bigsmile: . . . is it virtual or is it real ??? or don't we know yet? I like to pop enemy bubbles but I haven't won any medals yet . . .but I could do that all day while listening to ambient music .. . .

    And when it comes to infinity it goes both ways . . . .find a base and go outwards or inwards because if you are looking for the end you won't find it in either direction. . .One of my favorite science fiction stories was about this scientist who ingested a formula that made him grow smaller and smaller . . .down through cells, molecules, atoms, nuclei, sub-atomic particles, and further as the smallness never ended . . . finding within each atom more cosmoses and universes and existences beyond count . . .

    If there is an end - to space - what would it be . . . time! So we add into the mix - eternity . . .

    how about this ??? If existence starts now and goes on forever - is that eternity . . ?? A beginning with no end? Like a fractal which has a finite beginning with an infinite design . . . . . what else?
    :shocked:
  • Re. Big bang:

    You're forgetting about quantum string theory. I'm far from an expert, but quantum string theory predicts the existence of an infinite number of infinite universes existing on an infinite number of dimensions. Whenever two or more universes come into contact with one another, the resulting bump is experienced by each individual universe as a big bang. Let's not forget black holes. Certainly, they defy all standard scientific explanation, and yet we have again and again seen proof of their existence. By their very nature, black holes have infinite gravity. This can only be explained (albeit my understanding of the science involved is VERY limited) as rips where different universes somehow traverse the dimensional divides and collide through each other. This makes the big bang a series of big bumps causing simultaneously, the ending and beginning of universes. The PBS science series "NOVA" did several excellent programmes on black holes, quantum string theory and the big bang theory. If you check those out, I think you'll agree with my conclusions.
  • I use to love to watch NOVA :)

    WOW... what a great show! I also use to read allot of New Scientist. I had their subscription for years. Great magazine really...

    err I just wanted to agree on Nova being great. I should get watching it again. :)
  • Yes - NOVA was great . . . I grew up with a huge stack of "Scientific American" magazines in the basement in my dad's tool room

    and I read anything that smelled like it had words and those were my favorite magazines for years . . . but some other magazines I

    found - most interesting . . . "Popular Science" and other science magazines . . . I remember reading about spontaneous human combustion . . . and since

    I was eight or nine I had nightmares for a decade after that . . . . . I had this deep seated belief that I would burst into flame at any moment . . .

    :devil::shamed::devil:
  • orangeupurple said:
    oooohhhhh but here I am again spamming your thread . . .


    You serial spammer :bigsmile:

    SouthOMike said:
    here may be holes in my thought processes, but I blame that on the `60's.


    Lucky you :wink:

    SouthOMike said:
    A single plant. Not a group, where they could propegate, but one single plant. Most start from a seed. If the seed sits on/in the soil and it gets enough water/nutrients it will grow. If the ground is barren, and has no nutrients, and no other plants to help propegate another, then in turn that one plant would wither and die. If left alone to decompose it may deteriorate into the ground, where it "might" feed a different seed - but! we are talking of the one plant. Once it has rotted, then that would be its end.

    There are a lot of variables that could be thrown in to juxtapose this plant into something else, as I never gave a genus.

    Am I on the right track I.B.1


    Not quite what I was getting @ . As you say a plant will naturally decompose and thus be recycled . So no end ,just matter taking on another from of matter . Sure if the plant does not propagate it will not pass on it's genetic material/information to another plant and eventually that individual plant will die .And that will mean the chemical processors of that plant,photosynthesis etc, will end .Growth will cease and the plant will decay so the plant it's self will end it's life.But as I mentioned this is a "form" as the plant matter being naturally connected to it's surroundings will simply alter form becoming something else.

    SirQuestinghood said:
    Why is it that many people have no problem with infinite bigness but ignore infinite smallness


    Exactly ! Though I have researched a little deeper and it seems "my theory ",of what the Big bang " Theory", is meant to be about was a little off course.

    Apparently the Big bang Theory does not try to explain any beginnings or ends . Rather just what happened after the time of the Big Bang .Although there may be "Theory's" how the universe is evolving ,or creating if you prefer ,science has yet does not have a full understanding .And doesn't even "pretend" to know what came before the Big bang .

    Probably a Little Knock or something :tongue:

    SirQuestinghood said:
    I liked what you said about Rhythms... natural rhythms... The Rhythm of Life. :bigsmile: I like to think on that stuff when listening to ambient.


    I'm amazed how many different scientific fields regular use the term "Rhythm" or "frequency" in describing a scientific measurement or natural process,though mainstream science does not seem to equate this "Rhythm" as being more significant or at the "pulse" of all there calculations & observations .It brings to mind the classic phrase " can't see the wood for the tree's " to mind .

    You really could make a never ending list of how anything in life is subject to Rhythm . Though bearing in mind that Rhythms do not necessarily have to repeat exactly "on time" or "on the beat " . In fact Human music sounds more Rhythmical when the timing is slightly varied but still followers a structure relative to the general over all timing .

    Anyhow as I said it amazes me how many "clues" there are in life revealing the nature of life yet are over looked by science,religion,shoppers & D.I.Y enthusiasts .

    The earth Rotates every 24 hours . That is all a rhythm is, a regular and predictable occurrence / timing .

    The Earth Obits the sun every 365.256363 days or a solar year . << Physical mass subject to "timing" . <br />
    Many life forms have a Definite "beat" the pulse of there hearts .

    The list really is endless. Endless because the very fabric of matter is and can only be infinite . There can be no beginning or end.

    In fact there actually is no tall,short,high,low,fast,slow,left,right,top,bottom and Time ( It's Timing ) . All these are relative measurements . I.E - I am Big relative to a grain of sand . Yet a Grain of sand is Big relative to a Atom and yet I am small relative to Mountain etc etc.Thus the "meaning" of Big only serves to give us a comparative reference & is not a fixed measurement .
    We live in a linear structured existence where all things are connected to all other things .There are no parallels in Matter , no other Dimensions that we can not sense,though matter can be bent to produce distortions that are not always what they may seem without scientific knowledge - A rainbow for example .

    One physical, tangible reality that we all share. By feeling a Solid rock you are in fact sensing the nature of the universe and thus yourselves .Sure the infiniteness of existence can sometimes "Dilute" that sense because life is so varied . But a rock is a hard physical from because the universe is founded on physical matter. Just because we now know through Microscopes that this matter can be incredibly small doesn't alter the fact that it is a physical substance .

    orangeupurple said:
    And when it comes to infinity it goes both ways


    hehe pardon the pun :smile:

    orangeupurple said:
    One of my favorite science fiction stories was about this scientist who ingested a formula that made him grow smaller and smaller . . .down through cells, molecules, atoms, nuclei, sub-atomic particles, and further as the smallness never ended . . . finding within each atom more cosmoses and universes and existences beyond count .


    It's not fiction ! How else can we be here if it were not for a compete infinite structure as described above . Then I watch some "scientific" documentary on TV called "edge of the universe" .A title of complete contradiction.

    Some "mainstream science" has Gone Bonkers .

    The same Documentary ,about cosmology, was confidentially predicting events that it said " would happen" in so many billions of years to planets light years away from earth .

    Hehe science still has problems predicting what will happen on this planet in the next few hours . Weather systems :bigsmile:

    well I suppose science gets a bad name because there are many whom try to make money from the knowledge by interpreting it to suit there Business ideals,or TV Dramatising it, rather than only sticking to the known proven facts .

    Michael.Lopez said:
    You're forgetting about quantum string theory. I'm far from an expert, but quantum string theory predicts the existence of an infinite number of infinite universes existing on an infinite number of dimensions.


    I'm not even trying to be a Big bang expert . I know my knowledge of the "Theory" is somewhat lacking and that is because I believe that the theory has been based on "facts" that are indeed not genuine facts .

    I believe the "infinite universes" theory is just some science Grabbing at the straws of chance . Science has reached a point, it is finding so many precise details of the universe.If any number of these "details" were not exactly or very close to what they are, life and in fact planet earth could not be.

    The earth's distance from the sun is one of a multitude of examples .

    So science finding all these precise measurements begins to seek explanations. and parts of scientific study having Gone so far down the road of complete chance born out of compete chaos, has no other road to go but to roll the dice of chance again .

    Thus scientific theory is now predicting a Multi-verse . "Because there are so many "chance's " our existence can only be possible because we are infinitely lucky and happen to be living on one of these Multi-verses were the earth has the right temperature for life and there is not too much of this, or too little of that ,or this is in the exact right proportion in relation to that etc etc etc times infinity = A lot of luck .

    How fitting a Theory .And indeed some of it does make sense and answer the many chance opportunity that have fallen planets earth way .But this theory is entirely presuming that all these needed exact measurements have indeed come about because of pure chance .

    So if not chance what else?. Religious people now get exciting and throw in the "Deity" card .And explain that some magical mysterious designer was indeed behind all these precise measurements . I will leave that road for the "believers" because I've been on it and it leads no where of any substance.(Not including the emotional depth that people coming together with the same belief can yield )

    So Lets imagine that science has got it slightly wrong .Lets say for the sake of argument that scientists spendings hour upon hour looking into the depths of space with telescopes etc are not getting a accurate image on what is actually happening light years from planet earth .

    Black holes being more theory that may have been built upon more theory .Or rather some human scientists have made a error in calculation. Which certainly won't be the first time nor the last time these errors send science down the wrong path.Albert Einstein made some fundamental errors we now know.

    Lets imagine for Arguments sake that the True nature of our Universe can be found much closer to home .

    What if people whom deeply understood themselves Could in fact shed more light on our existence than scientists gazing out into space .Or rather give some science a much needed injection of "humanness" in order to balance there equations a little .

    The science of being human . The knowledge of understanding what makes us "Tick" .

    We are mammals or if you prefer we are creatures of emotion .These emotions drive us on to new discoveries about our selves .

    In fact it is these emotions that we all ultimately depend on in making our decisions .Our brains take in this emotional "evidence" and think about what this information means .

    Emotions can be the hardest information to understand because they hold all the deepest information . Emotions are nerves sending electrical signals ( Biorhythms ) to our brains ,in fact our brain also has it's own "virtual" nervous system or emotions and this we call our consciousness .

    So by reading and understanding these emotions for what they are , Rhythms.A more deeper understanding of yourself will lead to a deeper understanding of the universe.Giving us and our scientific explorations a better "bench mark" in which to gauge which theory may be heading towards fact and which is heading towards nonsense .

    We are born in this existence! we are as much part of it as the sun,stars,tree's ,water .

    It's all One and we have the ability understand our place in it .

    Maybe not the "meaning" some pray for . More a Reason why and how we are here.



    Away I hope I have not gone on too much about this fascinating life we all share .
  • [quote=IB1]revealing the nature of life yet are over looked by science,religion and shoppers .[/quote]
    Teeheehee :shocked: You said shoppers. :bigsmile:

    [quote=IB1]But a rock is a hard physical from because[/quote]
    Rocks are a pliable liquid. They are only hard because I don't understand Deep Time. A guilty pleasure I have been convicted of time and time again.

    I can pluck a rock from the back yard... and I can say that I know this rock. I have looked at it, I have sniffed it, I have licked it, I have cradled it and felt it warm up for me..., I have chipped a piece off of it and ate it, I have glued plastic eyes on it and had conversations with it (Oblivion related...of course), and I have buried back in my back yard for safe keeping. I know that rock. I have experienced it.

    But if you were to come in your spaceship 42 ba-google-years from now and re-animate me... to hand me that same rock... I would be very confused, up-set, hurt and defensive. "Why did you re-animate me to hand me this... this strange, bent, metamorphosized, stranger. This is not my round little friend that I accidentally got tear drops on, this is not my partner in crime that helped me break that police officers car window at 2:30 in the morning, and this is most certainly not the rock that beat my perfect record in staring contests...." "That is not MY rock!"

    And honestly, IB1, if that is what you do... 42 ba-google-years from now... re-animate people just to mess with their emotions... then that is... well... not very nice. :bigsmile:

    [quote=IB1]I am Big relative to a grain of sand . Yet a Grain of sand is Big relative to a Atom and yet I am small relative to Mountain etc etc.[/quote]
    :bigsmile: I have liked what you have said and it has given me "food" for thought. (especially the "Little Knock" part... that one caught me totally off guard)... But I'm once again in a silly mood to ramble... I do hope you do not find any of this offensive.

    I think I understand what you are saying... to the best of how I am able to understand words. But words can be tricky things when meaning and mental pictures... a point... can be attached. For example, If I said, "Imagine my cat!"... you would have a picture of it. Now I say, my cat is purple because he accidentally got some hair dye spilled on him... he is a short haired cat with a long tail... medium sized for an adult cat... he is missing his left arm from a terrible auto accident... and he is a drawing (yes, the hair dye got spilled on the paper when I was drawing him) Has your mental image changed at all?

    I know mine has. :shamed:

    [quote=IB1]Then I here of some "scientific" documentary on TV called "edge of the universe"[/quote]
    Science hasn't gone totally bonkers... that one is real. There is a restaurant at the very edge of it... Mr. Adams lives there now. I kinda miss him. :sad:

    [quote=IB1]Emotions[/quote]
    I am going to have to think on that. I have always been from the camp that emotions skew our lens of focus.

    A example of this is when I hand a girlfriend a puppy... she holds it up to get a better look... the puppy licks her face... another girlfriend says "Aww he loves you"... while another girlfriend enthusiastically shakes her head up and down with confidence and says "Yep, he is a keeper!"...... the whole time I'm watching the puppies tail to see if it is in full swing (fully left-to-right) or if it is left-swing skewed or right-swing skewed... because I don't know... fully... if "swing skewing" is an ingrained behavior or if it is a socialized pattern that is in-forced/learned from their peers... this reaction (experiment) is, of course, fueled by my emotional inability to totally let go of learning that animals are soulless automatons... from my early years of being socialized in church.

    err what I'm trying to say is... :smile:
  • Doesn't matter what we "believe" or "know" . . or "wish" or even "understand" . . .
    "Theories" or "scientific facts" either -
    none of which will really change anything bigger than ourselves . . .

    but whatever is . . .. is . . . . and it may be beyond
    anything we can conceive of, or understand under
    our limited human senses and finite-ish human brain . . .

    Maybe God?!!?

    but it IS fun to think about and speculate and TRY to understand . . .
    I, myself, have a theory of a fantastic tapestry thing . . .
    which we are all a part of . ..each of us a thread . . . a specific thread which
    is important in the whole scheme of things . . .
    and which we cannot see with our finite eyes .. ..

    but that's just a fantasy of mine . . .
    and keeps me moving forward in life in the belief that
    something about me is helping others . .. and the colors of my thread
    belong in the tapestry . . . otherwise . ..
    why should I exist?

    serial spammer that I am . . .
  • Ten bucks says... orangeupurple... has had a pet rock... sometime in her life. :wink:
  • I think I WAS a pet rock once in a previous lifetime . . . . I vaguely have memories . . of two google eyes and a red yarn smile . . ..

    nooooooo . . .. the nightmares . . . !!!!!!!:sad:

    stopppppppppppp the bad memories are coming back . . .

    did I have wings too?
  • [edit] Teeheehee :shamed:
  • OMG - I remember flying . . . I do . ..

    SirQuestinghood said:
    2 different types!


    unfortunately none of them were powerful enough to keep me up
    and I came down
    crashing
    and burning
    to the ground . .. .
  • GGGGGRRRRRRRR SIRQ

    You need to stop editing your stuff . . . you said 42 different types of wings . ..
    did you LIE?
    and then remove it?????
  • Or maybe all that flying gave me delusions . . .
    illusions and hallucinations . .
    and I just "believed" that you said 42 different types of wings . . . .
  • [edit] Teeheehee :shamed:
  • SirQuestinghood said:
    what ever are you talking about? o_O


    I don't know . . .. 0_0 . . . I am thoroughly confused
    and I have thus far forgotten my name . . .
    and my quest . . . aren't I questing or is that you?
    and what are you questing for . . . may I ask?
    or have I already asked?
    I forget . . .
    "SirQ" say that fast five times . . . .
    and then check in the mirror and see if your
    head is spinning around and around

    or like Alice in Wonderland
    maybe
    down the rabbit hole . . .

    SirQuestinghood said:
    "GGGGGRRRRRRRR SIRQ" also implies emotion. Sorry


    You are forgiven . . . that was easy . . . since I forgot what I was emotional about . . .

    back to the music . . . :bigsmile:
  • IB1,

    In my quest to find universal... human... symbols (like a simple smile) of happiness, I may have stumbled on another. I found a wonderful vid on Selkie's site that is full of beauty, rhythm, and being briefly one with what is right in the world. Hopefully, you have seen this and will enjoy watching it again.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWUrj22pRD0

    :bigsmile:
  • That's a super great share . . . Sir Questingguy . . . I love that video and its guaranteed to put a smile on your face . . . . :bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile:

    and :bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile:
    :bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile:
  • [quote=orangeupurple]"SirQ" say that fast five times . . . .[/quote]

    LOL, I actually did that. And thank you on the find. :bigsmile: I watched that vid like 6 times in a row.
  • SirQuestinghood said:
    Rocks are a pliable liquid


    C'mon you know I meant Physical substance .Liquids , Gases are all physical in nature that is my point .

    SirQuestinghood said:
    Rocks are a pliable liquid. They are only hard because I don't understand Deep Time. A guilty pleasure I have been convicted of time and time again.

    I can pluck a rock from the back yard... and I can say that I know this rock. I have looked at it, I have sniffed it, I have licked it, I have cradled it and felt it warm up for me..., I have chipped a piece off of it and ate it, I have glued plastic eyes on it and had conversations with it (Oblivion related...of course), and I have buried back in my back yard for safe keeping. I know that rock. I have experienced it.

    But if you were to come in your spaceship 42 ba-google-years from now and re-animate me... to hand me that same rock... I would be very confused, up-set, hurt and defensive. "Why did you re-animate me to hand me this... this strange, bent, metamorphosized, stranger. This is not my round little friend that I accidentally got tear drops on, this is not my partner in crime that helped me break that police officers car window at 2:30 in the morning, and this is most certainly not the rock that beat my perfect record in staring contests...." "That is not MY rock!"

    And honestly, IB1, if that is what you do... 42 ba-google-years from now... re-animate people just to mess with their emotions... then that is... well... not very nice. :bigsmile:


    Lol Genius

    You really should write a Book in the above context :bigsmile:
  • orangeupurple said:
    Doesn't matter what we "believe" or "know" . . or "wish" or even "understand" . . .
    "Theories" or "scientific facts" either -
    none of which will really change anything bigger than ourselves . . .


    Not quite True .We are changing the planets Climate.and it is the changing our behaviours that is the key to prevent us harming this balanced eco system beyond repair . we really are destroying something that we are only just beginning to comprehend, it's magnificence, and what it can provide for us now and in the far future if we take care of it .
  • SirQuestinghood said:
    Ten bucks says... orangeupurple... has had a pet rock... sometime in her life. :wink:


    Surely a Pet Pebble counts! As a pebble is indeed a rock that has had it's edge's smoothed by the forcer's of the sea .I have a Pebble somewhere?.

    But then the factual part of my brain reminds me I am being silly and the pebble doesn't really love me :cry:.

    But I can love the pebble for what the pebble really is . Even though I DEFINITELY know that the smooth rock is incapable of loving me back .

    Yes I love my Rock unconditionally.
  • IB1 said:
    Even though I DEFINITELY know that the smooth rock is incapable of loving me back .

    Yes I love my Rock unconditionally.


    Then again .....Through the eyes of a poet:

    "Little pebble upon the sand
    now you're lying here in my hand,
    How many years have you been here?

    Little human upon the sand,
    From where I'm lying here in your hand
    You to me are but a passing breeze.

    The sun will always shine where you stand
    depending in which land you may find yourself.
    Now you have my blessing... go your way. " ~ Donovan Leitch ~


    maybe we humans are arrogant and narrow- minded in our definition of "Love" and our perceptions of the " pebble".

    Surely the Pet Rock does count. Maybe it is symbolically representing the whole of which it is part and therefore our need to befriend and care for it...or maybe it represents our ability to paste silly google eyes and yarn mouths on it and exploit it to make a buck.
  • IB1 said:
    We are changing the planets Climate.and it is the changing our behaviours that is the key to prevent us harming this balanced eco system beyond repair . we really are destroying something that we are only just beginning to comprehend, it's magnificence, and what it can provide for us now and in the far future if we take care of it .


    Yes.
    We are all connected. What we do now determines the future ... or ...if there will be one worth living.

    If the pebble blesses the man, then we should honor and care for the pebble. No?
    Time to revive reverence for our great Mother... that Magnificent "pebble" lying here in our hands.

    [edit] lol..it may be that I've been shoveling snow too much...
    or maybe it was that close encounter with a falling icicle. You guys are over my head! Back to shoveling.... lol.....:confused::wink:
  • SelkieSong said:
    What we do now determines the future ... or ...if there will be one worth living.


    Precisely . In our known recorded history there has never been a time where humans have had so much power.So much power that we can influence the natural systems of the world .

    We could be using that responsibility and knowledge to Give nature a Helping hand and contribute to the planets eco systems and essentially look after the earth as the earth provides for us .

    Or we can waste that responsibility and knowledge with short sighted greed, selfish objectives,non sustainable political and business ideals, that eventually will amount to nothing of any worth for anyone or thing ,Unless we can change .

    It's beyond words trying to reason why the latter seems to be the most popular way of "Life?"

    Is there something "wrong" with many humans. What is the factor that is causing humanity to be so destructive .Is it because people have knowledge of there own end that makes so many completely irresponsible on what the future of this planet will be.

    Are we simply just not grown up enough yet to handle the responsibility that our knowledge has given us ?.
  • SelkieSong said:
    f the pebble blesses the man, then we should honor and care for the pebble. No?
    Time to revive reverence for our great Mother... that Magnificent "pebble" lying here in our hands.



    Yes We should care for the pebble , rock , planet .

    And yes we are born out of the materials of the earth, so calling the earth or even the rocks which make up a large proportion of it "Mother" would not be out of context.

    BUT! have no doubt how we fit into this world .

    People whom get caught out or are unlucky on our "mother" earth find our that her kind of love is without human feeling or compassion .

    A Volcano erupts and will destroy any living thing that gets in it's way .

    This eruption is not a "Good" nor "Bad" event .

    It is merely the earth's natural systems .This is the system that we have been born from .And evidence of these systems are everywhere .

    If we respect earth and learn from earth, it can give us so much and allow us to live and love .

    If we Disrespect the earth and abuse and unbalance the natural systems it will take everything from us without a conscious caring thought .

    For it is humans that have evolved a consciousness .Not the Rocks or even the Tree's for they simply have no brain .

    Lets not be neglectful of our place on this earth because the lessons can be terrifying .

    So do "Your Bit" for the planet and have A good day, because you will then be part of the solution and not the problem.

    And just because some people can not, either understand,or imagine,or care that there will be a future past there own lives, does not give them the license to consume as much as they can without giving anything back in return .

    There has to be more "green" laws put into effect to protect the earth, thus us, from Destructive people and business .We have enough time to educate these Bad habits out of our cultures ,So lets not waste that which we have .
  • SelkieSong said:
    maybe we humans are arrogant and narrow- minded in our definition of "Love" and our perceptions of the " pebble".


    I think human beings have the monopoly on all the different definitions of love there are .

    Though I think all would agree that "love" represents the feeling of caring for other things and yourself.

    So judging by the actual environmental damage many countries are causing to planet earth

    Why don't billions of humans Love Planet earth?
  • IB1 said:
    Why don't billions of humans Love Planet earth?


    Because we broke the link with the Earth.
    We forgot how long it takes for the seed to grow up, we forgot the value of life when we stopped looking for our food by ourselves.
    Ask a child from where comes the cacao he drinks each morning, you will be surprised ...
  • Nikila said:
    Because we broke the link with the Earth.
    We forgot how long it takes for the seed to grow up, we forgot the value of life when we stopped looking for our food by ourselves.
    Ask a child from where comes the cacao he drinks each morning, you will be surprised ...


    The evidence, sadly, supports your statement .

    So then how do we "connected" individuals who do wish to live with or in harmony with "mother Earth" & in fact understand that it is essential that we do,help those whom have become "disconnected" .

    The "connected" know the reasons why this happens as Nikila wrote " we broke the link with the earth" . We live lifestyles of convenience and spend much time in manufactured environments where our sense's don't always directly link all we have as being a product of nature .

    So we drink water from a tap and don't feel thankful that the earth has provided us with this life giving fluid or we drink a flavoured drink from a tin can and don't associate that all of the contents in that can have been sourced from our natural environment .

    In reality coca cola have not made that drink .They have merely taken natures ingredients and mixed them together .So the person not understanding the actual direct natural connection that has made it possible to mix coca cola,maybe lacks the conscious to care one way or another if that can is recycled or not .

    I believe it is the manufacturers whom should be held responsible for there own waste.After all the coca cola drinker is not buying a metal can or a plastic bottle but the relatively harmless drink within .

    There has to be an incentive for the casual coca cola drinker to recycle there cans ( of course I am using this as just a example) .Healing the earth's natural environment for now and the future is obviously not enough of a incentive for these people, because they are not seeing the relationship between there actions and the planets future .

    One solution would be that coca cola includes in the price of a Can or bottle a return postage fee. I.E - A prepaid postage stamp on the Bottles label .

    The money generated by these postage fee's could be used so recycling company's could set up systems in order get these posted used bottles to there recycling depot etc .

    Or even more simply stop using plastic bottles and use paper based packaging instead .

    Anyway what I am saying is that Good business sense protects it's best assets . And since all business depends on a relatively stable environment in which to do business, the natural environment is everyone's best asset by far .

    It's a awkward situation, quite often the people whom need to change the most are the ones whom have the most power or influence over our society's culture and infrastructure .

    Hence the mess we are in is still in the hands of the ones who are causing the most damage and they are a very opposed to anything which could apparently weaken there Grip on power .

    Hopefully even these key players will come to understand that the way we are living now will all be for nothing if we can't do the right things by nature .

    Because we are nature :bigsmile:

    We could begin a movement towards a bright future tomorrow if we all came together on that one belief .

    We are nature ! Surely this is something we can eventually all agree upon, thus celebrate, and gather and rejoice that we still have a natural environment to be alive in.

    All the Days of celebration many countries have, many of these days celebrate different Religions .

    We should have a !!!!! NatureDay !!!!! A day we can simply celebrate being ourselves and accept that everyone has a beating heart that is pumping red blood around there warm Bodies no matter what else they choose to believe in.

    And that beating heart and brain works at it's best when it has clean Air to circulate through it .
  • SirQuestinghood said:
    LOL the problem with that idea is... If I imagine a big bang... does it exist? o_O


    That depends on your definition of "exist" .

    Taking the word "Big bang" in your sentence simply as an element of you imagination .If you mean does something in your imagination exist in the world out side of you brain than no it does not. It does though "exist" for you in your imagination .

    The imagination is not a "tool" that measures "perception" or reality .

    Here is an example . We can imagine Anything. Just keeping it simply we could imagine that our Hair is made of grass .We could take that further and imagine pulling out some grass feeling the "grassy" texture of Grass .

    So in essence our imagination can imagine anything that is simply not true anywhere else other than in our imagination .

    Many times throughout history the imagined has been widely accepted as reality . The world was "Known" to be flat .because..? well it looks relatively Flat!.If you time travelled back in history ( if such a thing were possible)and tried to explain to the people of that time that in fact the world was a sphere ,would be very frustrating .

    To put it politely ,people would simply imagine that you were just imagining it !.when it reality it was the other way around, they were the ones whom were imagining the world was flat when it was actually round .

    So what is the difference? why does one person, as we now know,the world is a sphere when people have believed the world to be flat .

    The difference is factual based Knowledge . It is this type of knowledge that prevents us ( well most of us) from jumping off cliffs or high buildings with the belief that we can defy gravity and fly or float .

    The knowledge of the laws of physics enable us to know without any doubts that some things are simply possible whilst others are merely not possible .

    Our Fantasy's can give us inspiration in dreaming that one day we may find a way to jump of that cliff and fly and our factual based science gives us the sense to know that which is fact and that which is ......? Aspiration or wishful thinking .

    And then that Fantasy does come true but not quite in the way many had dreamt .

    We can jump of that High building or cliff so long as we use our understanding of technology to help our dream out .

    We Learn from nature and design wing, and indeed we can fly as the insects and birds do.

    So "Fantasy's" are as important as "reality's" .

    And knowing what is reality gives you that "bench mark" of which fantasy's could become reality - Like A drug for example that Cures Aids and cancer. And what are pure fantasy's like time travel , other dimensions , ghosts and the many superstitions that have been brought forward from our past .

    But then you open up the morality flood gates and some people can get very emotionally hurt by learning the simple truth .It's not that science is uncaring and wishers to disprove religion or peoples belief in life after death .

    It is just science and the facts are ultimately the real facts and the rest is ultimately the real imagination .

    And just to conclude or justify why I feel so deeply that people should understand our roots .

    By accepting that you are a fully fledged member of nature just like the Birds,mammals , fish, flowers .In fact by reliquinshing all dreams of being something "super natural" and see that yu do infact live just like all other animals do .

    You will be a mature human being and live everyday respectull of the Air you breath,the food you eat,the sun that gives us warmth.

    You will feel more alive because you will understand that is exactly what you are .

    Death? well in the future? that could even be avoided with the right knowledge and lifestyle .

    Humans are living longer and longer. I believe that there is no immutable physical law within our D.N.A that dictates there is a limit to how long a living thing can live for.

    How would immortality ( and using technology to avoid natural disasters) change how humans live and where would we live as our numbers Grow .

    There is no reason why there can not be somewhere in another Galaxy a planet that can sustain carbon based lifeforms or that one may evolve .

    Energy for thought !